Unpopular opinion: cores should allow supports to take some farm during the laning stage

by luckytaurus. Posted on Aug 01, 2020    0    16


Here's why I say this. When you're a support and get an early tranquils or force or glimmer, your game becomes infinitely better and easier to stay alive in team fights, help out more in team fights, mobility around the map, sustain in lane and fights, etc. Which heroes are the most impactful early-mid game? Supports. If supports have farm, they'll be able to take over the early game setting up their carries for an easy farming game and catch back up in farm by the mid-late game.

Also this: let's talk about mathematics. If a support goes from 1000 networth to 2000 networth, that's a 100% increase in networth. If a core goes from 6k networth to 7k networth, that's a 16.7% increase in networth.

Now, you're all wondering "well if the support takes farm then my core will be less farmed than their core and will fall behind" and you're right, this is a risk. However, being behind 1k is not make or break (usually) and that 1k might be better shared with a support who can finish that early force staff or glimmer that can help the team, versus finishing that 3rd or 4th item on the core. Lastly, if that support gets that early 1k extra of networth, they should be more active around the map putting pressure on lanes and towers and therefore limiting the farm the enemy core receives and expanding the farm your core receives, eventually balancing out that 1k deficit incurred earlier in the game, but now you have a support that is 1k more farmed than the enemy support.

Long story short - we've all been there and losing out on a few last hits as a core is not game losing, but getting just 5 last hits as a support sometimes means the WORLD to them, those early boots, etc. Why doesn't the meta support a strategy like this?


Comments

Dick__Dastardly 1

It does, and you see it all the time in a bizarro "emperor-has-no-clothes" thing where people don't acknowledge that it's literally the thing winning their games. If they're in too much mental dissonance about it, it'll only happen in cases where the support got a few kills early on, and has more money than usual.

It's huge though - the biggest thing most people don't realize about carry farm speed is that the number one factor influencing how fast a carry can farm isn't their items, or anything about the carry themselves:

It's map control.

If you're under threat of death, your farming efficiency will get completely destroyed by the fact that you have to play timidly because you don't know where your opponents are - or even run away from creeps that were half-finished because someone's ganking you.

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Unless you're a completely whacked-out escape hero like AM, who can farm in enemy territory and is limited only by how fast they can "get in and get out", no farming item's gonna save you from a situation where they're invading your territory, and your team is too poor to protect you. In that situation, the people who should get priority farm are the people who get the most immediate, effective power spike that makes your team able to win fights, and ideally, threaten the enemy team away from hurting your farm efficiency.

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Most of the theorizing about ideal farm efficiency seems to posit an enemy team that's a bunch of vegetables who just sit there and watch, instead of, you know, playing the game and trying to kill you. In fact, as a general rule; this is the core flaw in most theorizing about the game - people theorize like it's a single-player sandbox like animal crossing, when in fact it's a game where 5 (often competent!) people are trying to totally ruin your beautiful plan.

Jedi_Judas 1

Because this game is about item timings and delaying key items by 1k gold rarely translates to "2 minutes" because in the 2 minute window that your core is lacking a key item like manta or bkb the enemy core is using his timing to take control of the map leaving you with no safe farm to take anymore. Suddenly those 2 minutes become 4 minutes and enemy cores are a full item ahead instead of 1k gold. That "third or fourth" item is usually the point where most cores are ready to take aegis and start ending the game. In other words the win condition.

  luckytaurus 1

This is everyone's argument but isnt there a reason open AI had 4 farmed heroes and 1 dirt poor hero? I still think theres merit to having an over farmed support early game to put heavy pressure around the map and restrict enemy farm

adipen_ 1

Usually all supports have a mechanism of nuking neutral creeps or enemy creeps when carry is hitting the jungle or dead.

For example, lion, shadow shaman, lich, .... all the supports (common supports) can farm pretty good. No need to steal farm from carry.

Sageofflorence 1

problem is that supports are not always better in the midgame (to the extent 1k nw wont change). This is really only the case when comparing to a safelane farmer. The midlaner and offlaner will likely be stronger and derive that strength based on 1st or 2nd item timings.

for the carry there are games where you need to be able to jungle ASAP and giving you support a wave will delay it enough to where the enemy slardar will be able to kill you with lvl6. The carry might also need a farming item like BF they need ASAP.

Then you have to take into account that the support is suited to trade while the carry is suited to last hit (regen vs quelling blade). By making the carry start to trade with enemy support while support last hits is putting both players in situations they are not suited up to take.

The best way to get that early farm on your support is to win lane and have the carry go to the jungle so that the support can take lane farm, or ironically enough to lose lane so hard the carry has to abandon it so that the support can nuke wave.

Timings are so important in dota for cores you can't really afford to delay it in any situation given the choice. Even for things like blink on support ES it isnt gotten through taking farm in laning stage but by giving space in midgame which is already done and perfectly normal.

ElatedRaven 2

They will just buy a fucking aghs or blink

jMS_44 2

Absolutely wrong, and definitely not to extend you're mentioning.

The difference between 6k and 7k networth on carry might be completing their core item. So while your carry is still farming because he gave some gold to support, the enemy carry can already force a fight and take objective, further increasing their advantage.

  luckytaurus

You miss the point. What about if they're both between items, your support with an extra item over the enemy supports can be forcing fights, furthering the team networth lead....

jMS_44 1

My point still stands. If your support is ahead on net items, then it means your carry is behind. And who has more impact on the game. Your post 5 with finished Glimmer or their Slark with completed Diffusal? The support strength comes from the fact they can be useful with no items so them finishing one will hardly be that impactful as core completing theirs. Of course there are some exceptions like e.g. ES blink dagger, but in most cases he shouldn't be finishing the item over your carry. Rather the offlane.

CashmereWaffle 2

Yea not to the extent you are talking.

To a smaller extent yea, for sure. I'll stack with a buddy and be his pos5. If I'm 300-100 off from Mana boots or something very useful for the landing phase hees more than happy to let me get a few last hits. More Mana also gets more opportunities to get kills to, so it usually pays off too.

As a pos 5 even I would say that extra 1k is better spent on the carry. If your that desperate for gold, go stack for your carries.

In your example that 1k is the difference of a complete abyssal blade for a carry or an ogre club on a support to work towards aghs.. kind of a no brainier there....

mjauz 3

And then your core is behind by 5 minutes on his item timings. No.

  luckytaurus

behind 5 minutes because you gave your support one or two full waves of last hits?

mjauz 5

Yes? Supports get items by making successful pulls and rotations, not by hitting creeps.

  luckytaurus 1

If you farm at 600 gpm which is very average, youd only be about 1.5 minutes behind in farm, not 5 minutes lol

miksimina 3

Supports can get gold from sidecamps while pulling. Personally I don't mind supports taking a creep here and there and I'm not sure does it matter, but it seems important to higher end players. I guess every creep can matter.

kakungun 8

the issue is that farm is exponential, the more you farm the easiest to farm is, because the amount of resources is limited , even with the advantage of relatively stronger supports, a farmed carry is gonna be able to farm faster than the other, while a support is gonna be very usefull even without the farm that the other support had