We calculated that Sam Fisher’s kill count across the Splinter Cell series is 484 kills (with 97.5% being from Splinter Cell: Conviction).

by TK-576. Posted on Jul 14, 2020    1587    210


Sam Fisher is hardly the first modern stealth hero. But together with Snake and Garrett, they form the triumvirate of 2000s stealth espionage where the goal was to infiltrate like a shadow and spare as many lives as possible.

But as everyone knows, Sam took a detour in Splinter Cell: Conviction. Obviously, my friends and I knew Sam killed hundreds more in Conviction than earlier games combined. But we didn’t know he killed 3,900 per cent more, till we sat and counted...

Splinter Cell (2002): 3 kills

Pandora Tomorrow (2004): 1 kill [CORRECTION: 10 kills, credit to u/TGP482]

Chaos Theory (2005): 3 kills

Double Agent (2006): 5 kills

Conviction (2010): 472 kills (seriously) [CORRECTION: 418 kills, credit to u/fataldecrease]

Blacklist (2013): 0 kills

[Ghost Recon Wildlands (2017): 1 kill, credit to u/Ouka94]

[Ghost Recon Breakpoint (2019): 2 kills, credit to u/gingerbeardman79]

We documented our kill count for Conviction on video, though I understand if mods frown on links in posts. (Mods, simply remove the link if warranted.) We didn’t document our kill count for the other Splinter Cell instalments because almost all deaths occur in scripted sequences that are easily verifiable. Still, our analysis of Sam’s body count has caveats...

Sam’s takedowns in Conviction are always magically lethal (except in Lincoln Memorial).

In Conviction, a takedown with a gun usually results in a bullet to your opponent’s head, John Wick-style. You can holster your gun, but even when your takedowns don’t appear to be lethal (e.g. punching someone’s nose into their brain... okay, bad example), other hostiles refer to the downed comrade as dead anyway. Canonically, the only time takedowns aren’t lethal is Lincoln Memorial, when President Clinton Caldwell tells you to use nonlethal takedowns to avoid killing police officers.

We ignored fights in Price Airfield, Lincoln Memorial and Downtown District.

Sam may be a mass murderer, but he’s not a bulletproof Rambo. During parts where search parties were scripted to run past where we hid, we simply ran to the exit instead of fighting, as it was safer.

Canonically, Sam killed the final boss in Conviction... unless you live in the Philippines?

Not kidding. In the finale of Conviction, you canonically shoot Big Bad Reed in the face. It seems final, right? Nobody waltzes away from a point-blank headshot in games (except Mona Sax), right?

Nope. In Tom Clancy’s Elite Squad, a Philippines-only spinoff so obscure that it still has no Wikipedia page, Reed survived execution in front of multiple witnesses and helps you in Elite Squad. This blatantly contradicts information in Blacklist, as well as common sense. Then again, many fans don’t accept Blacklist as canon either, due to its changes to Sam’s character and awkward attempt to merge Chaos Theory freedom with Conviction gameplay, rather than rejecting Conviction outright. I understand the hatred for Conviction and Blacklist, but I still feel that...

Conviction isn’t irredeemable. If you like Batman or Corvo, you’ll like this.

Sam from Conviction onward has little in common with his old incarnations. But I suspect the developers did this in response to stealth as a genre moving in a different direction, foreshadowed by games like Arkham Asylum and Assassin’s Creed. Instead of games where you’re prey that avoids hunters, you’re the predator that hunts the hunters. The developers tried to get themselves ahead of this trend by adapting Conviction accordingly, albeit in a less graceful way than predecessors like Arkham Asylum or successors like Dishonored. It’s why...

Old-school stealth in AAA games is (probably) dead, not just in Splinter Cell.

Did Splinter Cell forsake its uniqueness by moving toward predator-like gameplay? I believe an audience exists for old-school stealth, but not necessarily in numbers that will satisfy shareholders. The best compromise seems to be games like Metro where old-school shadow-based stealth is possible, but you can switch styles if you fail. Still, I’m not purist enough to think Splinter Cell would still be “alive” if Conviction never occurred. In an era where games like Dishonored do what Thief did but better, maybe Sam needs a Guns of the Patriots-like send-off so he can get closure and pass the baton to another generation. I still miss Sam, though.


Comments

dwcfy

So what? I killed tens of thousands in Serious Sam. I win.

Ouka94

Food you add in the couple of kills he gets in "wildlands"? Sam was in apart of a special mission.

  TK-576 1

Darn, I didn't play Wildlands, so I missed that! According to Google, Sam kills a former CIA officer in that game. Is that Sam's only kill?

Ouka94 1

Yeah, I believe it's cutscene related. They attempted to tie him into the ghost Recon world. The cutscenes for the mission shouldn't be that long if you wanna check it out.

Drakowicz 1

Conviction isn't a particularly bad game-or even great- but i don't get why it's a Splinter Cell. That killcount is one of the reasons why it sucked so much at being a SC. I mean alright, i get the overly simplified and stylized gameplay but it's massive stepdown from the previous episodes. Specially when it comes to choosing a non-lethal approach.

flyingsqueakers 2

Kind of foreshadows what they would do with Far Cry and Assassin's Creed later on

fataldecrease 1

Isn't it >!Victor doing most of the kills in Iraq!<?

  TK-576 2

Yep, the end of the video gives a breakdown of Victor's kills versus Sam's!

Edit: I was wrong. Somehow I forgot to include that breakdown when I exported the video on my computer. I've added a correction to the original post.

pangopicker 1

I think the Styx games are probably the closest you'll get to older stealth games.

KomputerIdiat 1

Man...if chaos theory would release on GOG... I don't even give a shit about the other splinter cells.

I would also love to play double agent but I don't know if they released a PC version of the Xbox 360 multiplayer.

TGP482 1

The xbox 360 multiplayer is in the PC version

KomputerIdiat 1

I just looked it up and you're right. The PC double agent game doesn't seem as popular as the chaos theory PC game.

TGP482 1

That's because the Double Agent PC port is on of the worst ever made, it's almost Saints Row 2 levels of bad

KomputerIdiat 1

It didn't look half bad on this guy's channel.

  TK-576 1

The PC port of Resident Evil 4 might be equally bad, or worse. I remember it shipped with lighting completely disabled. :-o

notnormal3 1

I loved conviction.

manavsridharan 1

And just like that you reminded me to maybe hope for a Splinter Cell game in Ubisoft forward and now I'm here depressed.

INeverAskedF0rThis 1

The only required kill in the original was Nikoladze, and Lambert references rumours of his survival in Pandora Tomorrow. Even the DLC can be done non-lethally. It's possible for Chaos Theory's 3 kills to not count, too. I think you have to press the non-lethal takedown button. The animation won't change, but the game won't count them against you. Double Agent, I swear I've gotten zero kills on all levels. I don't have Conviction, but I've seen a few people do let's plays of them ghosting the game. If I recall, the only kills in those games you can't get out of are the 3 from the burglary flashback, the dude you electrocute, and 2 or 3 enemies during the mandatory mark and execute at the end.

abacabbmk 1

It was posted here before

King_Rhymer 1

Oh so we forgot hitman for stealth games. I see how it is.

siledas 1

To be fair, the mere fact that enemies announce that their comrades are dead doesn't necessarily mean that all of your attacks are lethal.

If you're guarding a building and your buddies start hitting the ground, you might be less inclined to check their pulse than to just assume that they're totally incapacitated (i.e. dead) while keeping your eyes glued to every shadow around you.

tarangk 1

I so want a Chaos Theory remake, problem is knowing current day ubisoft they WILL find a way to fuck it up in 10 different ways so I guess we are better off without it.

abacabbmk 1

Isn't this a repost?

flyingsqueakers 1

They posted this after on the Splinter Cell subreddit. Maybe that's why

menimex 1

Conviction was all about Archer and Kestrel for me. Co-op with a friend was awesome.

sapoctm7 1

Black List is my favourite third person shooter.

Stereoparallax 1

Looking at it purely from a story perspective I think that Conviction was a great part of the series. From a gameplay perspective I can see why people don't like it but tbh I'm not too bothered by the fact that you can't beat every level without kills. If you want to play the old games then go play them. No need to remake the same thing over and over again.

IndyPFL 1

MGS kind of did this backwards tbh. Ghosting the original games is very difficult, but it got easier as time went on. With the addition of Camo Index in Snake Eater, every MGS game after that became far more easy to play without ever taking out a single non-boss enemy. The Phantom Pain even rewards you for doing "no traces" runs, where you don't fire any bullets, or raise any suspicions, or even leave behind empty magazines or cardboard boxes. It literally isn't even possible in some missions, but a majority of them can be done just with great precision and timing.

Havoksixteen 1

MGS2, 3, 4, Peace Walker and 5 can all be beaten non lethally. (Bosses will still "die", especially MGS3 where the explode regardless)

MGS1 is the only one where you have to kill enemies. So Snakes kill count would be rather low.

i3dz 1

"In an era where games like Dishonored do what Thief did but better"the sound design in Thief was way better...still is.

  TK-576 1

Thief also did shadow-based stealth better. Dishonored was intended to have light-and-shadow stealth, a la Thief, but the developers dropped it so they could better showcase Dunwall's art design and environments.

i3dz 1

Yes it did...interesting about the dishonored fact too....they should bring out an update with that in place,would be interesting to see how it worked in game.or put it in the next game.

spainzbrain 1

Which game had the glass that you could shoot one of your your gadgets at to make it opaque?

Solokiller 2

Chaos Theory.

spainzbrain 2

Cool. I enjoyed that one

Ferromagneticfluid 1

Lol it is kind of funny how this works out sometimes.

Like I was watching a TV show. There were like no deaths/killings throughout most of the first season. Then they made a huge deal about a couple different characters killing their first person, even though they were scumbags. Two episodes later they are killing multiple people per episode and shrugging it off like it is nothing.

flyingsqueakers 1

That's like reverse CW Arrow

ZoraFairchild 1

I only played Splinter Cell 1 and Blacklist.

  TK-576 1

That's like watching The Phantom Menace, then skipping to The Rise of Skywalker. :-p

Vicrooloo 1

Upvote for 21:9

  TK-576 1

Ha, glad you noticed! Part of the reason we do 21:9 is to show we didn't just take another YouTuber's footage and slap a kill count on it, since 21:9 game footage is relatively rare. And despite the trouble with configuring 21:9 for some games, I think 21:9 is more immersive, epic and cinematic. Hope you felt the same as you watched.

JohnnyJayce 1

It's been some time I've played Conviction, but wasn't the plot basically an agency coming after him? So it makes sense, killing all the agents.

Solokiller 1

Sort of. Fisher was manipulated into stopping an attempted hijacking of the Presidency by having the good guys convince the bad guys that Fisher was a threat to them.

  TK-576 2

Yes, though the fact that everyone at the agency wanted to kill Sam or overthrow their own government required some... suspension of disbelief, to put it mildly.

Like, how did Reed convince hundreds of Third Echelon employees and Black Arrow mercenaries to help in massacring the White House and executing their own President? Were the hundreds of co-conspirators simply fine with committing casual treason against their own country? Did Third Echelon offer excellent dental benefits to keep everybody quiet or something? So many headscratchers...

FizzleMateriel 1

You’re so right.

I never liked those levels like Third Echelon HQ because you’re supposed to treat all the Splinter Cells as bad guys to kill even though you blew up the parking garage with C4 and caused an alarm. Obviously they’re going to shoot at the intruder who did that.

The game also tells us that not all Splinter Cells were in on the plot to assassinate the President because Archer in the co-op campaign definitely didn’t know.

But we’re supposed to be ok with murdering all of those guys because they have red goggles? What?

And as you said, why would they go along with a plan to assassinate the President anyway?

HeroicMe 1

> Nobody waltzes away from a point-blank headshot in games (except Mona Sax), right?

Ehh, I guess it depends on definition, but I'd argue Mona Sax's was not a point-blank headshot, just a normal headshot :)

But Max Payne did survive PBH :D

  TK-576 2

Mate, I'm trying to calculate Max Payne's kill count across his entire trilogy too! I'm not finished yet, but I can tell you his body count in the third game comprises 52 per cent of his lifetime kill count. :-D

necrosteve028 1

PT should be more than 1 as you kill the henchmen showing higher heat signatures? And DA when you’re forced to kill to prove yourself on Sea of Okhotsk.

  TK-576 1

You're right, I've added a correction to the post.

With regards to Double Agent, Carson Moss does tell you to kill the supertanker's crew, but using nonlethal takedowns (except against the captain) still fulfils the mission.

jivebeaver 2

everyone is "killed" in conviction because the game doesnt have a functional distinction between KO and kill. a semantic difference at best

it doesnt even have thermal goggles to confirm like old games

sizziano 2

It's not really semantics when there's a specific mission that actually allows you to (and requires) non-lethal takedowns.

Van1shed 2

This is some good shit, but can't you skip some of those guys in Conviction? I haven't played in some years but I thought you could with some exceptions like Lincoln Memorial and Third Echelon HQ.

  TK-576 5

I wrestled with this question a lot. Ultimately I decided consistency was the key. If we could consistently play and replay sections and reliably avoid enemies each time, then we avoided those enemies in our "official" count. This happened in 4 sections across 3 chapters, where hordes of guards appeared and the safest choice was to simply dash like a madman to the exit!

Van1shed

Gotcha, that makes sense.

Helphaer 3

This seems a bizarre post. Canonically he has killed more than 0 in Blacklist. Youre assuming the full stealth playthrough all non lethal is some kind of canon but that has never been the outlook of splinter cell.

And you cant choose what is canon or not so blacklist and conviction are of course canon.

He has never shown any reason to allow someone to survive and possibly be a threat later, just makes no sense tactically.

Sam is a killer. He was trained as a killer. He has the freedom to kill as he chooses to complete a mission. Logically the only times killing might not make sense is when his infiltration isn't against actual enemies of his group.

At least state prior that this is just your personal experience with kills in conviction and that the game seems to avoid pacifist playthrough despite having an option for stealth. Don't try to position your experience as some norm or apply your views to Sam despite his considerable history and the very purpose of him.

Anxious-Dare

This is why I dislike the attitude that a lot of gamers have where "stealth = ghost".

Yeah, there's the 'stealth power fantasy' of being the master thief, being so good that no one knew you were there, but it's not the only way to play to succeed and it's not the only way that will fit into the rules of most stealth games or most missions in them ("3 alerts and I'm scrubbing the mission" also means twice is 'fine'). Someone sneaking around can also be a little sociopath who has human life as a lower priority.

Heck, most stealth games are fairly close ties to the immersive sim genre where you make your own path with the tools available, and that might include leaving a body as bait to lure more guards to their death and remove 'obstacles' to your objective.

Witness_me_Karsa 3

You are correct in all of these assertions. But id ask you to compare it to people who speed runs, or dark souls on bongos, or with no damage.

Of course we know that not having perfect stealth is an option. But God Damn does it feel good when I get a "perfect" on a mission. Even if the game doesn't give a shit. Its a challenge I set up for myself, doesn't have anything to do with you.

But this is just perfectionism. I want perfection in all of my gaming, if possible. If I play a game where I can lose a soldier if I make a bad move/call, it really irritates me for a while. I suspect a lot of the folks who want perfect stealth are also bothered by stuff like this. Its just a different personality trait. I don't care how you play. That said, I don't think it can be argued that the "difficulty" I've set for myself -that of perfection- is harder than the "normal" difficulty, and obviously I don't mean the game setting. But again, you can't tell me that playing dark souls on bongos isn't harder than playing with controller.

CricketDrop 2

I've only played one of these Splinter Cell games, but don't they normally explicitly congratulate players for minimizing kills?

I think that'd qualify as ludonarrative dissonance if the game intended Sam to kill but persuades the player from doing so, and I'm not convinced Sam becoming less kill-y is supposed to be a theme of the games in any way.

saladTOSSIN 6

As is stated already in this thread, "pacifist" runs are almost always treated as Canon as far as sequels are concerned. It's an interesting post to see how radically they changed the franchise moving forward into next gen sam fisher, there's no reason to be pedantic.

Helphaer

I wouldn't call that pedantic at all, though I've also never heard any reference to pacifist runs as being canon in any of the games. He would be equipped differently if this were true.

gingerbeardman79 2

Sam also has 3 canon kills in the last two Ghost Recon games. One in Wildlands, as Nomad meets up with him inside an Unidad, and two more as they meet again in the first chapter 2 mission of Breakpoint.

No, these don't occur in Splinter Cell games, but they are Clancyverse canon.

And yeah, I miss Sam, too.

  TK-576 2

I can't access the Ghost Recon games right now, but I'll take your input on good faith and add it to the original post!

legendofkalel 2

Me who has only played Conviction: So you don't kill everyone in this series?

[deleted] 2

[deleted]

flyingsqueakers 1

Even with chemicals, you'd need a medical degree to understand the correct dosage and adminstration methods to ensure that it wouldn't kill.

​

And in further support of what you're saying, current discussions on police brutality are relevant.

siledas 2

Getting smacked in the face by an airfoil round fired from a grenade tube would definitely fuck your shit up.

TBF, though, Chaos Theory was the first time I'd seen the term 'less than lethal' used to describe those kinds of things.

juicemang762 27

I'm confused as to why you're pretending that a) You can't just kill every npc you come across in previous splinter cell games and b) that it's mandatory in conviction. There's no continuity to your calculations.

  TK-576 77

In prior Splinter Cell games, you have the option to avoid killing NPCs completely, except non-optional targets like President Nikoladze in the first game, Norman Soth in the second game, etc. Canonically, these are these Sam's only confirmed kills. But Conviction has multiple sections where the game doesn't even allow you to progress unless you kill everybody in the area. To date, it's the only Splinter Cell where pacifist runs and ghosting aren't possible.

juicemang762

And you're claiming that this is true for close to 500 people? I find that to be highly dubious

anor_wondo 17

The pacifist run is usually 'canon' in stealth games. I've never seen a hitman game acknowledge that agent 47 is a mass murderer

Duckbert89 5

Trying to get the Silent Assassin ranks was the long term value to those games.

Anything less wasn’t canonical.

ArcherInPosition 6

Same goes for Dishonored. The sequel even shows the consequences of you being too nice IIRC

sizziano 34

Like he said "knocking" out NPCs actually kills them.

Zoolix 2

The game should have just called it incapacitating.

mirh 2

> But Conviction has multiple sections where the game doesn't even allow you to progress unless you kill everybody in the area.

That may even be true, and there's hardly some way to "take care" of people without killing them..

But you basically seem to have wanted to interact with every single NPC in the game. I'm pretty sure you aren't required to do that.

juicemang762 3

I just went back and played the first level and easily skipped half the people you claim have to be killed before the showdown with Kobin. You guys just didn't try whatsoever.

runner909 3

Thats wrong info.

Sam didnt kill a single person on-screen in Iraq during Conviction.

  TK-576 2

Whoops, you're right, those 54 kills in Iraq were Victor Costa's. I've edited the post accordingly!

SirRedentor 3

Convictions playstyle fit with the story it was telling. I had no problems with it, as I quite enjoyed the theme and gameplay.

ACCount82 1

I agree, but I get why people who expected more Splinter Cell were disappointed.

bsldurs_gate_2 31

I hated Conviction so much. There is too much generic shooting. Blacklist is stealth all over and a really good game.

Ghostfistkilla

Yeah it was very disappointing playing it as a veteran of the series. It went from a stealth-espionage spy thriller to a crappy call of duty third person shooter just to try and aPpEal tO THe MasSEs

vram1974 1

I found the PC version too rough around the edges, the game didn't work in 21:9 and the HUD was a mess for hotkeying (you had to go into the HUD slowdown everytime and picking a different weapon was hit and miss for me). One thing I found frustrating was that shooting somebody from close range could result in a miss, but I discovered early on that Ubisoft's favourite overpowered Far Cry move (F for takedown) resulted in easy removal of all enemies. So, just wander around the level mashing your F key. Job done.

mirh 2

If you play it on the hardest difficulty, it's not too bad.

Otherwise yes, it can be played like some random cod.

TGP482 18

That's debatable, in my opinion Blacklist is still just a third person shooter with stealth mechanics

DrScience-PhD 8

Hey, sometimes it's a first person shooter, too.

FizzleMateriel 3

By the time it got to that level I kind of dropped all expectations I had.

There’s a couple of levels where you have to do bullshit busywork like play as Briggs sniping all the bad guys so that Sam can infiltrate which feels like filler they added to pad the mission content.

What bothers me is that it doesn’t even fit the action-stealth gameplay they wanted to promote, surely they’d rather players be having fun slitting throats and Mark & Executing people instead of playing a sequence that feels lifted from a Call of Duty game that came out 10 years ago?

WhiteWolfofRivia0914 3

I liked Blacklist a lot, but it's the only SC game I've played so I don't have any others to compare it to.

MrRoot3r 7

I played blacklist only coop with a friend, I thought it was alright.

Not a big stealth fan tho, but it didn't seem like a "bad" game in it's own right.

It was also the only splinter cell game I've played, so yeah.

Anxious-Dare 10

Have you posted this to /r/Splintercell?

danonjj 2

holy fuck, my people... subbed!

  TK-576 7

Should I...? I feel like crossposting my own post onto another subreddit might lead to being downvoted into oblivion, in case it's seen as self-promotion...

Sierra--117 2

Hey I can get your karma if you want... /jk

UneasyEspeon 1

Shit man, I'll take it.

  TK-576 7

Ha, ha, no worries. If nobody crossposts this by tomorrow, sure, I'll consider crossposting it myself. Given how dejected the Splinter Cell subreddit is about another year of Ubisoft Forward with no new Splinter Cell, maybe some fresh content will be appreciated!

TheRockGaming 21

I never played Splinter Cell after Chaos Theory; I loved the first three games, but the subsequent games looked too different from the first 3, so they never caught my interest.

ThisPlaceisHell 1

Same and I think we made good decisions. Like being a fan of The Matrix and never blemishing your thoughts on the franchise by witnessing the horror that is Reloaded and Revolutions.

killerparamedic 6

You’re missing out on Double Agent for the PS2/Xbox/GameCube generation; it has a very similar feel to Chaos Theory and I believe had the same production team

TheRockGaming 1

I'll have to pick it up on Steam, then!

cgoldberg3 1

They never ported that version to PC unfortunately.

Solokiller 4

The PC version is the next-gen version, which is very different from the PS2/XBox/GameCube version. It's also incredibly buggy.

TheRockGaming 1

I see, I wonder if the PS Now version would be the PS2 or PS3 version. I'm guessing 3.

killerparamedic 1

The best way to get would be through Xbox virtual store or grab a copy of the original game and play it via Xbox backwards compatibility. The One X up scales it to 4K and I suspect the upcoming series X would be similar

Solokiller 2

The store says it's the PS3 version. You can apparently download a timed trial, so you can try it before you buy it.

Kraigius 4

Man, I hate that game. Every mission is a race against the clock to do all the obj and avoid pissing off the terrorist for being too slow.

In the previous game I could enjoy stealth at my own pace.

  TK-576 12

Yeah, all three games that followed Chaos Theory were problematic.

Double Agent had the bad luck of being developed during a transition in console generations, leading to multiple versions, split development and bad porting. Conviction was a fun stealth game, but I can see why the community doesn't consider it to be a real Splinter Cell game. Blacklist brought back player freedom a la Chaos Theory, but Sam's drastically different character (basically a soft reboot, given Michael Ironside's absence) left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

At this point, I think most of us are resigned to only ever seeing Sam in Easter eggs or DLC for other Tom Clancy games. Allegedly he'll appear in the next season of Rainbow Six Siege, so... hurrah?

browngray 3

They also changed Grim's VA in Blacklist.

I didn't mind the gameplay but I hated the change with how both characters were written. They were hilariously snarky up to Chaos Theory then they became an argumentative couple overnight in Blacklist.

FizzleMateriel 3

Sam also lost his dark sense of humor and turned into a brooding, moody asshole who makes stupid decisions and yells at people.

In the London level he gets himself poisoned with nerve gas and captured after Grim warned him how risky it was, which was stupid. He later yelled at Briggs for saving his worthless life and letting Sadiq get away.

In another level (Iraq?) if you choose to spare a terorrist leader, the guy grabs hold of Sam’s pistol and uses it to kill himself. No way do I believe the Sam Fisher in Chaos Theory or even Conviction would let the guy he’s interrogating for information kill himself with the gun he’s pointing at him. It’s so Hollywood melodrama.

They could have named Sam and Grim “Eric” and “Kate” and it would have had as much impact on the story and characters. It’s not like they were recognizable as the original characters.

CastingCouchCushion 10

I would give Blacklist a shot. I ignored it forever because of the backlash it got on the internet, but I played it and had a great time. It isn't the same as the early Splinter Cell games, but it is a fun stealth game. It lets you go through any way you want (run and gun, stealthy lethal, or no kill) and even ranks you based on your play style. There are some things I don't like, like how you can climb around like coked up Assassin's Creed, and no Michael Ironside. Still, I'd rank Blacklist right behind Chaos Theory as my favorite Splinter Cell game, and Chaos Theory is one of my favorite games in any genre.

RyFisch 7

Did Conviction not sell well? Is that why they never made a Conviction/Blacklist threequel? I played the fuck out of Conviction. Didn’t mind Blacklist, but still. Ubisoft needs to get their shit together.

AlianAnt 1

Conviction is in my top 5 of all time, regardless of genre.

I'm still super pissed they dropped the Megiddo arc like a sack of week-old fish. I really wanted to know who or what that was.

I think they just didn't do a good job of really defining how much the events of Double Agent had messed up Sam emotionally. They tried to convey that in a couple lines at the beginning of Conviction but, they really didn't drive it home like they needed to.

Because of that failure, I initially I hated Conviction. Went months without playing it and then one day I got bored, popped it into my Xbox, everything clicked, and that was one of the best rides of my life.

Solokiller 1

Ghost Recon Breakpoint's bad guys feel a lot like Megiddo. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up revealing them as being the same people.

BoostedTyrian 3

iirc, blacklist was the one who didn't sell well, conviction sold enough to make profit, blacklist underperformed the financial expectations

FizzleMateriel 1

Yeah Blacklist sold only 2 million copies. And Ubisoft invested a lot of money into the motion capture acting for it that no-one cared about.

I’m pretty sure it was the worst selling game in the whole franchise.

SpandyBarndex 13

Pandora tomorrow changed my life

itz_fine_bruh 2

Does it support gamepad if I want to play on PC? Asking because most previous Splinter cell games don't.

Solokiller 1

You can probably play it through Steam to use its controller support.

Purtuzzi 1

I don't think so but I bet you can use xinput or something to make it work

Helphaer 2

How?

Ordinal43NotFound 3

Remembered playing the game back when I was primary school, so I don't really care for the story, other than that it's set in my country.

Now as an adult, I realized Pandora Tomorrow's setting and conflicts hits close to home as an Indonesian native.

Not gonna do a long write up, but let's just say this game's highlights one of Indonesia's dark histories regarding Timor-Leste's fight for independence which I don't think most outsiders know about.

TheReaping1234 7

It’s my personal favorite setting/story, but the gameplay of CT still remains the highlight of Splinter Cell.

MrMic 4

I played thousands of hours of Pandora Tomorrow and Chaos Theory multiplayer back when I was in high school. I still miss it, and there's no real modern equivalent.

danonjj 3

still get withdrawals from Chaos theory's SvM ... still chasing that deagon...

MrMic 2

Completely feel you dude.

Never experienced the tension and intensity of a SvM match in any other game. The quick planning and outsmarting you had to do to be effective at the game was an unparalleled experience. Top tier dopamine surge when everything came together, and an equal adrenaline rush when the shit hit the fan. Maps like Hospital, Museum, Factory, Club House, and Orphanage had really good layouts and balance, though there were a few poorly-balanced maps, like Station and Warehouse. Also the netcode was garbage-tier sometimes and led to some really bullshit outcomes.

Regardless, I still consider it to be my favorite multiplayer game of all time. The ubisoft splinter cell forum circa 2004-2007 was basically my homepage.

Also, I coincidentally came up with my current username originally for this game, when I finally got my microphone configured and it kind of just stuck.

Paul_cz 23

Funny how Splinter Cell 5 Conviction is not really a Splinter Cell game and Hitman 5 Absolution is not really a Hitman game. Both are still awesome, albeit black sheeps of the series.

Nuotatore 1

Always noticed that: and Blood Money is the 4th and considered the best ever, just like Chaos Theory. Then came Hitman 2016 "the some of them all", just like what Blacklist intended to be.

  TK-576 16

Conviction and Absolution are my guilty pleasures. I understand why fans dislike both, for deviating so much from their mainline instalments. But being able to cinematically "gun fu" everyone in a room in seconds means they're the closest unofficial John Wick simulators we've got.

siledas 3

I honestly don't even see them as 'guilty'. People enjoy what they enjoy.

Each obviously made a bad move with respect to streamlining the games without considering the expectations of the existing audiences (frankly, I always loved Chaos Theory), but I was perfectly capable of enjoying Conviction for what it was, and still enjoy replaying it every now and then.

Sure, it might have stung more if I cared about the stories in the Splinter Cell games up to that point, but since I can barely remember most of what happens in them beyond Michael Ironside's occasional dry one-liners, things like plot sensibility and character consistency was never really an issue.

To be honest, I probably would have enjoyed the Hobo Sam iteration of Conviction too. The improvisational brawler-style combat and emphasis on social stealth over traditional line-of-sight stuff actually seemed like an interesting change of pace at the time.

cardonator 3

Speaking of, why can't you find Stranglehold anywhere these days...

  TK-576 4

It's not on Steam, but GOG began selling it last year!

cardonator 2

Oh, dang. opens wallet

TGP482 33

Sam in Pandora Tomorrow kills at least 10 people in the final mission not just one and a lot of people he killed in Conviction could've been avoided, if you did the same thing as the video in Chaos Theory, the body count would be 100 plus. And in Double Agent I think Sam canonically kills like 16 people in the Okhostk mission

  TK-576 18

Oh, crap, you're correct about Pandora Tomorrow. I forgot Sam was ordered to kill Norman Soth's nine men too, not just Soth. I need to update the post accordingly.

Regarding Double Agent, Carson Moss orders Sam Fisher to leave a "body count", but killing isn't technically required. Using nonlethal takedowns on people aboard the supertanker still fulfils the objective. Heck, the game heavily penalises you if you opt to kill instead.

TGP482 7

That's incorrect, if you kill people in the second half of the mission the game does not penalise you for it that's why I think that it's canon that he kills like 16 people and the reason why Sam takes everyone out is so Massoud can take over the ship with no problems but the guards are obviously gonna wake up shortly after being knocked out. Further proof that it's cannon is because Sam says "Lambert, they're asking me to clean up the place!" in a distressed voice which doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me why he would say it that way unless he was forced killed everyone because he doesn't take pleasure in killing

FizzleMateriel 2

That makes sense from a story perspective.

It would be dumb if he could have made his way throughout Double Agent without killing a single innocent person, being forced to make immoral decisions to keep your cover from being blown was one of the selling points of the game.

Solokiller 257

Conviction is a Jason Bourne/Jack Bauer game with a Splinter Cell skin. It would've been a great franchise on its own, instead we get neither that nor Splinter Cell.

Blacklist has the main characters be incompetent and the bad guy be all-knowing to a ridiculous extent and it doesn't capture the stealth and atmosphere that Chaos Theory had.

And Ubisoft would surely turn any future SC games into generic open world games. Expect side-quests like going halfway across the map to interact with a piece of paper so you can go all the way back just so you can kill a random NPC and not even have any meaningful progression in the story. This is what they did to Ghost Recon, and it sucks.

-idkwhattocallmyself 3

The only successful way to do SC open world is to do one massive factory like setting, think MGS1. Im thinking the factory should be the size of a car plant or something. Only way I can see it working without being garbage.

Task is to shut down the plant by taking out x number of commanders, and as things unfold it goes more chaotic and insane. Sam stays hidden and is being hunted etc etc.

YourPalShane 1

If the game is done well that could be a pretty successful open stealth game that I'd play. Would be fun to see tensions rise as more guards figure out someone's there.

wareagle3000 9

Personally I think that kinda ruins the globetrotting adventure that most of the games had. Maybe they could have a MGSV or Hitman route where they give you an open level, low intel and tools to infiltrate these bases. You could start some levels in civilian clothes and gather intel on where your target is exactly, ways to enter, basically incentivize exploration and you can "suit up" at any time to get to work. Some levels you are given no casing work and have to enter Solid Snake style and piece together everything as you go.

I know its more of a Hitman inspired approach but it seems Ubisoft are just trend chasers now-a-days so having a successful trend helps.

Illustrious_Load 5

Ubisofts typical approach: Think of a new gameplay mechanic, add open world to it and slap a popular franchise name on it. It's how they also ruined AC. And Ghost Recon. And Far Cry.

And then they run around saying how they are out of ideas for a new PoP.

FizzleMateriel 1

>And then they run around saying how they are out of ideas for a new PoP.

I’m almost happy, because look at how they’ve ruined and boiled-down everything else.

You just know that if they did a new PoP it would have an empty open world and be chock-full of micro-transactions.

LuntiX 6

Despite all the shit Conviction got, I thought it was a really really fun game. That level where Sam just snaps and loses his shit is great.

To me it felt like a perfectly fine splinter cell game that shows off an aging Sam who isn’t able to be as stealthy anymore.

gingerbeardman79 5

Agreed. I no longer want another Splinter Cell game, but only because I'm convinced that Ubisoft will shit all over the series I love.

R0GUEL0KI 2

The books were alright. I read the first few and enjoyed them

FizzleMateriel 2

The guy who wrote the first two is an actual writer. He did ghost-writing for the Ian Fleming estate for new James Bond novels that came out in the 90s.

I think it’s a mark of a good writer that they’re able to adapt their writing to the IP they’re writing for. I didn’t find out until later that he wrote some of the post-Fleming James Bond novels which is ironic because he makes fun of James Bond as being “not a real spy” in the Splinter Cell novels he wrote.

The guy who wrote the later novels also writes the new Tom Clancy Jack Ryan books which is why they’re so bad.

R0GUEL0KI 2

Nice! I didn’t know that. I’ve read a few of the 90s bond books and liked them too. That explains why! I haven’t made it past like 10 of the Jack Ryan books. Guess I never made it that far haha.

KotakuSucks2 4

God I hate what Ubisoft did with Splinter Cell after Chaos Theory. Double Agent was a disaster and then Conviction wasn't even a stealth game.

cKestrell 1

The ps2 version of double agent is pretty nice i would say.

SScorpio 1

It's also on the original Xbox, Gamecube, and Wii.

Xbox 360, PS3, and PC got have the version everyone complains about.

Helphaer 7

If anyone bothers to remember the plot of Conviction theres a reason it was different at least lore wise. It wasnt via Echelon.

Solokiller 5

That plot happened because they tried to tie Fisher into the main plot in Double Agent. It's basically the "Fisher knows Shetland" thing from Chaos Theory dialed up to 11, and it made it impossible to have a sequel that simply goes back to Chaos Theory style gameplay because they canonically killed off Lambert and blamed Fisher for it.

You should also remember that Conviction was originally going to have social stealth. The poor response to that resulted in the retool to what we got. Even back then Ubisoft couldn't figure out what to do with the franchise.

Junoh315 1

Maybe they could go back to Chaos Theory gameplay if they changed the main character but IDK if I'd like that. Maybe they should just consider making a different stealth series with a middle market budget.

Helphaer 1

I do vaguely remember him tryinf to hide in crowds like assassin creed.

But conviction seemed more like he was doing all this rogue and without the rules or such he just did what he needed to. Though grim Dottie was providing equipment i think

Solokiller 2

Here's what the original concept looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g-dgf9BRRE

And yeah he was going rogue because he was mad that his daughter's death was faked.

FizzleMateriel 2

>And yeah he was going rogue because he was mad that his daughter's death was faked.

No, that story concept was only brought in later when they changed the game to be more of an action-shooter.

The original version of that story sounded like it was going for a conspiracy angle too but a bit more believable and politically-grounded. In that version the reason he goes against Third Echelon has nothing to do with Sarah's death and is more political.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2007/05/18/splinter-cell-conviction-meet-the-new-sam-fisher

>Splinter Cell Conviction begins with Sam living the good life in the Mediterranean. He's retired from work as a spy and has been living in a remote place, hidden after his Double Agent assignment. As is usually the case for people such as Fisher, trouble starts brewing. Ubisoft hinted to us that trouble with Anna is what draws Sam out of his cocoon. Regardless of the reasons why, Conviction will find Sam compelled to go back to Third Echelon and rejoin its ranks.

>Once Sam rejoins Third Echelon, he finds things have changed in his absence. What was once a model and efficient department has now become dysfunctional and filled with red-tape at every pass. Even worse, while trying to work within the crummy new system, Sam discovers a plot involving people he once trusted. Being the good guy that he is, Sam can't just sit back and ignore things. For the greater good, he's forced to work against his former employer, thus making the former golden child of the NSA the most wanted fugitive around.

Based on the comments made by the developers and some of the stuff revealed in the level design, it looks like the story had more to do with moral and political issues like abuse of government power and overreach, and political liberty in society.

Helphaer 2

Right so the whole plans within plans and careful decisions and working for stealth really wasn't his concern anymore. Killing was.

wishiwascooltoo 3

"I worked on Splinter Cell Conviction as an animator. The directors and team managers were the biggest egotistical French farts that couldn't even agree on what a cup of coffee was. They used to get artists to get them sandwiches and drinks from across the street so they could play Team Fortress during work hours. No joke. It was like working for children."

And I thought he finds out his daughter's death was faked only at the end of Conviction.

flyingsqueakers 1

Damnn. What's the source on this?

Solokiller 1

The video i linked has comments from people claiming to have worked on the game.

flyingsqueakers 1

Ah ok thanks

Solokiller 2

He finds out pretty early on in Conviction. First he gets attacked, then he goes after the guy shittalking his daughter, gets captured, then he's told his daughter is still alive.

somebody_forgotten 5

Social stealth wasn’t even a terrible idea but hitman will always be the king of that slice of the stealth genre.

Solokiller 2

Social stealth doesn't really work when your main character is a SIGINT ninja sneaking around in the dark.

TK421actual 8

Yeah... I could see it happening in Wildlands, which was still fun, but Breakpoint was just a grind. Some fun mechanics, but not great.

T-Baaller 6

Wildlands is a game that’s really close to amazing, it’s a shame that it went more RPG and less special-ops-sandbox with breakpoint.


The map had a great variety of thing to sweep, recon, defend, and so on. But the AI were a bit too gamey compared to old games. An option to be “realistic” would have made the game great

  TK-576 68

Yep, in this regard, Ubisoft has plainly quit caring. For tomorrow's Ubisoft Forward event, the description reads, "Our rich portfolio of world-renowned brands includes... Tom Clancy’s video game series including Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six and The Division."

Uh, what about Splinter Cell? It's like Ubisoft doesn't even want credit for giving birth to the modern stealth genre anymore.

GenghisKhan1206

It's ridiculous. They say the world-renowned brands but aren't including Splinter Cell which basically created a genre.

temporarycreature 1

Sam Fisher has been in the last 2 Ghost Recon games and both missions were not "interact with a piece of paper" in any way. In Wildlands, it was one of the best missions, I remember running through the tall grass turning back to shoot the enemies while being chased at night by a helicopter with spot lights. I haven't played Deep State yet because I was so overwhelmingly disappointed in Ghost Recon Breakpoint at the start, and 6 months into it's existence still.. I installed it again for immersive mode, but it ran like shit so that didn't last long. I'll try again soon.

somebody_forgotten 1

Also the new R6 op is fourth echelon and literally looks like fisher.

gingerbeardman79 4

Breakpoint still doesn't run fantastically, but speaking as a dyed in the wool Splinter Cell fan, a few of the Deep State missions are as classic Splinter Cell as it gets, and the new Echelon class does a good job of making one feel like Sam, as well as finally giving us a way to truly silently dispatch those goddamn drones, in the class item Shock Pistol.

Charidzard 3

They list those because those will have updates about them during the event. They've already announced they're going to show off Breakpoint's AI teammates update during the preshow and talk about Division 2's big easter egg. R6 has both Siege on-going which will surely be talked about and Quarantine which they announced last year with plans to release during this year but since then there's been COVID. Splinter Cell is unlikely to be announced so not mentioning sets expectations to not see it instead of getting people hyped because they read Splinter Cell mentioned. But even if it was they wouldn't talk about it until after the reveal.

manavsridharan 41

I'd say MGS and Thief are more apt for fathers of modern stealth, but Splinter Cell was very influential and is one of my favourite stealth games ever.

  TK-576 20

Yeah, my friends often say that Metal Gear Solid birthed sci-fi stealth, Thief fantasy stealth, and Splinter Cell realistic stealth. I know Splinter Cell isn't quite realistic (e.g. humans can easily see in shadow in reality), but it has fewer robots and zombies. :-p

SUPER_REDDIT_ADDICT

Isn’t Thief basically just dishonored?

KotakuSucks2 1

Not really, Dishonored only really takes influence from Thief's setting. It plays more like Deus Ex.

ToastedFireBomb 1

Yeah but it was over 10 years before Dishonored. If anything Dishonored is basically just Thief.

sheepfreedom 20

Dishonored was definitely very heavily inspired by Theif

SUPER_REDDIT_ADDICT 5

Oh my bad I thought for some reason dishonored came out first and I didn’t bother to check

sheepfreedom 2

Haha no worries

MagicPistol 5

The Thief games came out in the late 90's...

LeKa34 1

First one was '98, sequels were 2000 and 2004.

Then the reboot(?) in 2014.

SUPER_REDDIT_ADDICT 3

Yeah I was thinking of the reboot that was released more recently that u/duck74uk mentioned.

duck74UK 19

There is a modern reboot of Thief called "Thief" so that might be throwing you off

SUPER_REDDIT_ADDICT 9

That’s definitely what I was thinking of!

KotakuSucks2 1

I mean none of those are true really. Metal Gear Solid isn't even the first game in its series. Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake is a great stealth game in its own right, and of course there's Metal Gear 1 though I don't think it holds up very well.

As for "Realistic Stealth", there were submarine sims and stealth bomber sims which were big influences on Thief's gameplay, so Splinter Cell certainly wasn't the first "realistic stealth game".

In reality, MGS1 popularized stealth in games, and Thief established the idea of using light and noise as mechanics in a stealth game. Splinter Cell essentially was trying to have the mechanics of Thief combined with the tone of MGS and packaging it in a more linear, scripted set of levels (until Chaos Theory where the level designers really knocked out of the park).

Junoh315 1

>of course there's Metal Gear 1 though I don't think it holds up very well.

The NES version might not hold up very well but the MSX version is still good.

KotakuSucks2 1

I've played the MSX one, I don't care for it. Metal Gear 2 on MSX is great though.

Heil_Gaben 19

Tom clancys turns on its grave with every new title that has his name on it. Remember when tom clancy in a game actually meant something lmaoo??

menimex 2

Did Tom Clancy literally sell his name to Ubisoft?

  TK-576 6

Yes, he did so in 2008, before his death in 2013. Of course he retained the right to use his name for branding his Clancyverse books and films. But in the realm of gaming, Ubisoft has rights to his name in perpetuity, which is one reason the Clancyverse games have diverged so far from the canon of the Clancyverse books and films.

RechargedFrenchman 9

The SC trilogy, Ghost Recons up to GRAW2, and Rainbow Six up to ... Raven Shield I guess

GR Future Soldier and SC Double Agent were fun but already "losing their way", and Siege as much fun as I used to have with it (way too bloated and power-creeped since season 3-ish for my tastes) was even from the beginning R6 in-name-only.

I am hoping we may still at least get a SWAT 5 at some point though.

Heil_Gaben 1

Ready or not seems like swat 5

JcMacklenn 3

Future Soldier was the last project Tom Clancy was overseeing.

He was also overseeing Rainbow Six Patriots, but he died in 2013 and the cowards at Ubisoft cancelled and we got tactical Overwatch "siege" instead.

No campaign, no squad AI, no squad command, lackluster terrorist hunt.
They only care about PVP.

Hendeith 3

>They only care about PVP

I wouldn't say they care only about PvP. Making purely PvP games just doesn't need as much resources allocated. You don't need to write story for campaign, you don't need cutscenes, you don't need good voice actors, you don't need big or complicated maps.

In theory there are other things you need to care about (balance, variety of maps and characters, good netcode) but in many cases modern PvP games don't give a shit about any of thi.

It also allows you to profit on game for longer, because with low effort you can add new characters, new skins, new maps. Then you can sell season passes to allow instant access to all new characters and sell premium currency to allow buying skins.

ChrysisX 8

Rainbow Six Vegas was some of the most fun I've had with an FPS, but yeah it was already deviating a bit for sure